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Fake or real? "Are CMS Salesmen the new bullies?"

Fake or real? "Are CMS Salesmen the new bullies?"

Saturday 24 September 2011 4:57:12 am - 40 replies

I'm just reading this blog post: http://www.ornelas.org/are-cms-salesmen-the-new-car-salesmen

Maybe this is fake, but I'm not sure. What do you guys think about it? I noticed the blog has just one post and was created today just to show this case.

IMHO, reading the latest blog posts from the main ez blog it seems to be fake. Anyway, it was at our twitter block from home today and I think it would be good to post it here.

PS: Reading again, the only thing wrong with the email is the lack of data, I mean charts, numbers, sources, use cases, this kind of stuff, the whys. And the last sentence.

Links:

http://twitter.com/#!/ornelas/status/117341778901872640

http://ryan-ornelas.blogspot.com/2011/09/are-cms-salesmen-new-bullies.html

http://www.ornelas.org/are-cms-salesmen-the-new-car-salesmen

Modified on Sunday 25 September 2011 8:58:41 pm by Thiago Campos Viana

Saturday 24 September 2011 5:45:58 am

@ Thiago

Rats! The blog post you linked to earlier has now been removed/deleted.

Now the link to the page says "Page not found : Sorry, the page you were looking for in the blog Ornelas does not exist."

What was he talking about?

Also as I understand it CMS is not really all that new, so wouldn't it be ...

"cms salesmen, the old bullies your just learning about ... lol."

Any way it's too bad it was taken down sad.gif Emoticon

 

Cheers,

Heath

Saturday 24 September 2011 5:59:25 am

@ Thiago

Rats! The blog post you linked to earlier has now been removed/deleted.

Now the link to the page says "Page not found : Sorry, the page you were looking for in the blog Ornelas does not exist."

What was he talking about?

Also as I understand it CMS is not really all that new, so wouldn't it be ...

"cms salesmen, the old bullies your just learning about ... lol."

Any way it's too bad it was taken down sad.gif Emoticon

 

Cheers,

Heath

Here's the original content, edited to minimize conflicts (Note, I don't know if it's fake or real):

NOTE FROM LUKE BARTON on 09/24/2011: I removed Thiago's quotation of the original blog post because the original post has been removed.

Modified on Sunday 25 September 2011 3:47:55 am by Luke Barton

Saturday 24 September 2011 6:56:23 am

Ahh, Thank you for the text Thiago! Well ...

I kinda frown on sharing personal / business email these days :\

I used to hate aspects like the ones he describes in the blog post ... in my youth.

In my youth I would want to do exactly what this guy did, post the email/situation publicly in several places and get away from a clear leader and do my own thing.

These days I have grown and I am more inclined to even agree with eZ Systems on this subject.

Though to this day, I've never had any kind of pressure from eZ Systems (in this way).

And I still continue to remain a community partner, user and developer.

I rely almost solely on community build development and support.

I do think there is real value in eZ Publish Enterprise (certified model).

Disclaimer: I created a certified extension (projects.ez.no/bcwebsitestatistics) and on occasion am asked to do certified development on eZ Publish Enterprise (which I am trained to do). Just not often enough blunk.gif Emoticon

Cheers,

Heath

Saturday 24 September 2011 7:34:01 am

This is just one example of exactly why eZ Systems (sales) has a bad name with potential low bid clients ... (Not everyone values certified software :P)

I almost died laughing when I read what David said about the community builds, "... it was never meant to meet business critical needs.  Running your business on Community software and locked into one partners exclusive setup knowledge is a substantial risk."

Which is all true but ... we all rely on them to get through each day of our lives. They flow through our blood. Loads of folks have only ever invested enough to get by and this (before the community builds) was much more common in the days before eZ Publish Enterprise.

do not like folks bashing/nocking/disrespecting the community builds, period! This includes eZ Systems, Partners, Developers. Yes nothing is perfect but come on, this is software development, this is the same core product.

Some won't invest. Those of us who invested deep in eZ (learning, growing, developing, improving, documenting, all self taught, some pay for training) have and continue to reap large rewards. It's like anything, some can do it on their own, some hire someone, some outsource it all, some can't afford to do much, some don't respect the knowledge and skill required to continue to deliver reliably, and yes some can't learn eZ or don't want to bother, while even others simply can't keep it running or up to date with the current stable release / build.

I think there is real value in continuing to improve the community builds, they are what we all use anyway.

 

//kracker

I hope he never takes that blog post down, I hope it shows up in search results, I hope it gets mirrored, I hope people never stop talking about it. I hope people learn and grow personally. The why is -the answer- ... Yeah deal with it.

Theme: Kreayshawn : Kittys X Choppas : Hoes On My D*ck ...

Saturday 24 September 2011 7:52:27 am

I vote, 'real' as in 'really pissed off'...

Too bad for the 'partner' trying to sell a community build based project, sounds like they missed out on a at least one sale. That's too bad because eZ is an amazing cms (as kracker says if you invest (in one form or another)). Everything in life requires an investment and nothing frees one from risk entirely.

Saturday 24 September 2011 11:34:08 am

I'm very sceptical toward blog posts when the entire blog is removed within hours of posting.

That said - the community builds are solid. The cost of the community versions is the expertise needed on-site, but that holds for any CMS under any sort of license.

Saturday 24 September 2011 2:20:01 pm

FYI I can still open the link.

Btw, I don't get the bullying part. Do people publish blog posts when someone calls you to your home and tries to sell you a set of knifes happy.gif Emoticon

Saturday 24 September 2011 2:21:25 pm

My opinion, everybody could give a try to the community edition then, when the site needs to scale, use the enterprise edition because it is the ideal, I mean a site like the "Jack2KBlogUsersPerMonth" could use the community edition without problem, but if "Jack2KBlogUsersPerMonth" evolves and becomes the "JackTechCrunchKillerBlog2MUsersPerMonth" it's time to take the better option.

@Daniel I'm sceptical too, you know, "Fake or real?" is a sceptical phrase, right? I think the best person to tell us the person cited, that could jump in here and post something like "It's fake" or "it's real".

@Kracker I think there are good ways for bashing a product, just show charts, numbers, use cases, like convince with arguments, but do it all with the client business context in mind, try to show the ROI , analyse the potential client business first, fair play. I think there's no problem explaining that the enterprise edition is way better than community, 'cause it's true, but it needs context. Prove it is a win / win deal.

@Heath I also want to say that I developed several eZ publish sites and never received such kind of email.

Modified on Saturday 24 September 2011 8:10:26 pm by Thiago Campos Viana

Saturday 24 September 2011 2:24:02 pm

@Ivo I think the bully part is:

"I feel I must bring this to your management's attention.   

Please contact me by end of business on Monday 9/26 at 5pm PST or I will send the email to him".

Modified on Saturday 24 September 2011 2:34:56 pm by Thiago Campos Viana

Saturday 24 September 2011 2:39:09 pm

@Ivo I think the bully part is:

"I feel I must bring this to your management's attention.   

Please contact me by end of business on Monday 9/26 at 5pm PST or I will send the email to him".

Hm, got it now. The "or ..." is really bad wording here. It would be good to here David's side of story....  

Saturday 24 September 2011 4:46:55 pm

My opinion, everybody could give a try to the community edition then, when the site needs to scale, use the enterprise edition because it is the ideal, I mean a site like the "Jack2KBlogUsersPerMonth" could use the community edition without problem, but if "Jack2KBlogUsersPerMonth" evolves and becomes the "JackTechCrunchKillerBlog2MUsersPerMonth" it's time to take the better option.

interesting point here. but two things here.

  • where is the limit? who define it?
  • is still a decision of the customers to go with community edition even for big sites as long it's still posible and without software cost.

i know it's a bit crude but this is more or less how it's like here. we have some customers with ez publish installations from the 4.0 times. and they have big sites. but they were big sites at those times too. so, how to convince them to go for an enterprise edition if the thing has going well in the last five years? happy.gif Emoticon

and, hell, as a community member, i wouldn't like to think i'm contributing with code to a bad product or to a product that i should only use in "not risky" sites...

Just my two pounds.

Saturday 24 September 2011 5:45:53 pm

@Carlos

"where is the limit? who define it?"

I think we need some math here, I will give a sample, if performance is an issue && this issue costs more than enterprise edition && enterprise edition solves it, then use enterprise edition, else keep using community edition.

"is still a decision of the customers to go with community edition even for big sites as long it's still posible and without software cost."

While there's no issues or enterprise edition doesn't solve these issues, use community edition.

Sorry, I need to leave now, no time for a better answer, maybe later I came back, it's really an interesting question, we need just to keep in mind eZ system is not a charity entity.

Saturday 24 September 2011 6:41:58 pm

I feel this thread has derailed toward an "Enterprise vs. Community" discussion instead of the original point, which is the accusation of an eZ salesman using unethical and unprofessional methods.

I'm going to give eZ the benefit of the doubt and assume that they do not permit using threats as a sales method. However, at this point it would probably help if an eZ marketing representative could post and clarify the issue.

@Thiago: since you have published the content of the post, it needs to be addressed whether people are sceptical about it or not.

Saturday 24 September 2011 6:51:13 pm

I'm going to give eZ the benefit of the doubt and assume that they do not permit using threats as a sales method. However, at this point it would probably help if an eZ marketing representative could post and clarify the issue.

...Now i was writing a long reply to Thiago happy.gif Emoticon. but you're right. probably this is not the place happy.gif Emoticon.

Cheers.

Saturday 24 September 2011 7:25:19 pm

...

@Thiago: since you have published the content of the post, it needs to be addressed whether people are sceptical about it or not.

Yeah, but the best person to tell us if this is fake or real is the person cited. Here's the original tweet from the blogger: http://twitter.com/#!/ornelas/status/117341778901872640

Modified on Saturday 24 September 2011 8:11:30 pm by Thiago Campos Viana

Saturday 24 September 2011 8:23:14 pm

Hello eZ Community,

Thank you for engaging on these important topics. Long post to follow.

As a named individual in the original blog post, I think this is a great place to address the age-old question: "To Enterprise, or Not To Enterprise" (excuse me, William).

(Full transparency: I'm in a unique and qualified position to engage on this point. I implemented eZ sites between 2004 and 2009 as a developer and partner before joining eZ Systems in a sales management role. Some of you on this post probably remember eZ 3.3, and I know one of you loves(d?) eZ version 2!)

Below is a series of comparisons regarding the choice To Enterprise, or Not To Enterprise...  

 

VENDOR POSITION
1. We are community by design. It's one of the strands of our DNA. We depend on our community, but we are not controlled by it. You can read about our views here and here.

2. We are enterprise grade, and we contractually partner with our customers and partners to deliver value, revenue, profit and long-term viability. That is the other strand in our double helix. You can read more about our views on commercial open source here and here.

 

VENDOR SUPPORT
1. Community provides no contractual vendor support for your installation.

2. Enterprise subscriptions provide an ever-growing list of services that include:
a. Software Maintenance -- standard release cycle of the full platform, patches, bug fix, packages.

b. Services Network -- traffic analytics, recommendation engine, best practices audits, security audits.

c. Support -- support portal, email, phone support, dedicated account management.

d. Software Feature Support -- eZ engineers can analyze issues with the entire software stack.

e. Service Level Agreements -- we have response times as fast as 1-hr. 

 

VENDOR-PARTNER-CUSTOMER RELATIONSHIP
The enterprise subscriptions articulate our vision of being in "right relation" with partners and customers:
1. Certified implementation partners provide implementation, customization and configuration of eZ sites. Simply put, partners provide "project services and support."

2. eZ Systems provide software maintenance and support, and services attached to the software itself, not the specific implementation. eZ Systems provides "product services and support."

3. Customers, in turn, receive 2-party support and services to manage enterprise-grade, mission critical sites.
This is a value-driven, win-win-win relationship. 

 

PRODUCT EXTENSIBILITY
1. Our passionate community provides over 1,000 extensions on our project site. These are provided by individuals and companies, and invite contribution through common open source licensing.

2. Our new eZ Market provides enterprise-grade products that are available only to our enterprise platform. This market provides a revenue sharing model to monetize the value of our community and partner products. 

 

CODE BASE
1. Community innovates at the bleeding-edge, is less stable, constantly patched, and requires monthly upgrades to stay current. The monthly builds introduce the innovation at a pace that is too fast to fully bug test and quality assure, so risk is coupled with innovation each month.

2. Enterprise innovates at more deliberate pace, is more stable, patched through packages following a schedule, and requires upgrades no faster than twice per year (but you can choose to upgrade more slowly if you like -- every 12, 18 or 24 months). The "heart beat" release cycle allows your team to schedule and budget your time and resources according to your needs, and the deliberate pace decouples risk from innovation with a 2-month code freeze and quality assurance cycle before the release. 

 

PERSONNEL
1. Community installations require sophisticated and available developers to constantly tweak, quality-assure and test kernel code (as opposed to add value to the particular needs of your installation).

2. Enterprise installations allow your team to deliver value in a mission-critical environment where the team cannot focus on software development cycles, because they are required to maintain and add commercial value.

 

CONCLUSION

We love (and need) a community and enterprise version of our software. We realize that every situation is different, so we present the selling points of each approach.

Let met know your thoughts.

Thanks for reading.

-Luke

Modified on Saturday 24 September 2011 8:55:26 pm by Luke Barton

Saturday 24 September 2011 9:10:32 pm

Thanks for the elaboration on the advantages of the Enterprise version.

However, this thread is about questionable sales methods, and not the merits of different editions. We just need a simple yes/no answer: is the email quoted in the aforementioned blog real or fake?

It seems the blog is back up:

http://ryan-ornelas.blogspot.com/2011/09/are-cms-salesmen-new-bullies.html

Saturday 24 September 2011 9:15:09 pm

@ Thiago

Thank you for your forum message edits. I think that they are the least that can be done to be fair and try to obey the rules. Note: I was able to eventually load the original blog link properly. Those that want the source can go elsewhere.

@ Luke

Great to hear from you once again Luke. Thanks for sharing. I really enjoyed reading your reply.

I was thinking and mentioned this to Thiago on skype. Some folks (for business reasons) have to take eZ Publish development/lifecycle/process much more seriously and professionally while others don't even consider the true costs of ignoring these key aspects involved. This may be a generalization.

@ Daniel

As I mentioned to Thiago on skype. Honestly I really don't doubt the accuracy of the text the blogger shared. I think it's the interpretation which really can differ. 

 

Cheers,

Heath

Modified on Saturday 24 September 2011 9:17:53 pm by // Heath

Saturday 24 September 2011 9:27:29 pm

@Thiago

Plus 1 for your edits. No need for personal emails on the forums. Additionally, most corporations with whom I work include explicit privacy policies that exclude such treatment of internal communication.

 

@ Daniel

The email quotation is absolutely real. I was in CC. In regards to the intent of the original email...we disagree with the decision to use community in this particular case. We applaud the blog poster's budget stewardship (by using community, he will not be spending money on a subscription), but we articulate that by saving a few bucks puts at risk a revenue amount that is orders of magnitude greater than the subscription price. This asymmetrical cost-benefit assessment should not be lost on his team.

 

@ Brother Heath!

Thanks for saying hello and thanks for the response. And I concur, it's is quite alright for people to adopt different perspectives on the weight of the decision to use Enterprise or Community.

Saturday 24 September 2011 9:47:35 pm

Hello Ez Community, yes this is real!  - http://www.ornelas.org/are-cms-salesmen-the-new-car-salesmen

I intend to voice my opinion for every reply to support open communication and not let this get out of hand for some and to allow everyone to have their own view point.

Also would like trade apologies for including the direct contacts in the post, which have been removed for an apology in the sales practice.  The original post is down as I was in the middle of a domain migration, so I changed it to blogger. So check back in a day or two and it will be back online (w/o contact info).

Note this tread is not about what Enterprise has to offer over Community Edition, but about the sale practice.  I feel that with the right developers the Community Edition can perform well enough for us on this project.  If I did feel that I did not have the proper resources in developers then I would have chosen Enterprise Edition which was explained during a previous phone call with the rep.

As we have had an award winning website in the past, we do hope that we will be able to repeat it with our Community Edition of Ez Publish.  We will continue to support the Ez Publish community, just like we support our sites developed with the Drupal Community.

 

Ryan Ornelas
www.ornelas.org
@ornelas 

Modified on Saturday 24 September 2011 9:50:32 pm by Ryan Ornelas

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